Tim Cook Praises Apple's 'Symbiotic Relationship' With China During Beijing Visit

[Quackington]

Does he praise their treatment of the Uyghurs? How about Tibet?

My thoughts exactly. Internment camps.

 

[Mrkevinfinnerty]

More vulgar cosying up to the CCP from Tim Apple. Unsurprising.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Gross

I know he has to kiss the ring, but still..

Gross

 

[steve333]

Not a good look, Comrade Cook
Move your production to a country that isn't about to be uncoupled with us for bad behavior

 

[germinator]

Apple is doing business there for decades. A large amount of sales are generated there and there has been zero pointers to the contrary.

It depends on what you mean by "doing business." If doing business means just selling products into the Chinese market, this maybe a viable business model. Any other kind will inevitably lead to the decline of the companies involved. Due to short-term greed from idiot executives, many companies moved production to China. That turned out to be a huge mistake. When Apple tried to re-assert some privacy protection for their customers, the Chinese dictatorship immediately made clear that they can't do that. Now Apple is desperately trying to move out of China. It will take a long time, but I hope they will. Together with all other western companies. Isolate the regime and make them starve. Undo all of the economic ties. Isolationism is the only good policy against the CCP.

 

[MacProFCP]

What an amazing speech!

~ Read by Tim Cook. Written by Xi Jinping.

😎

 

[frownface]

Symbiotic?

Lets be honest, Apple needs china way more than China needs apple.

Apple get about 80% of it's revenue from devices, the vast majority of them are made in China, and those that aren't made in China still use Chinese made components.

Services make up the other 20% of their revenue.

Decoupling apple from china would completely collapse apple. There is simply nowhere else to go, even if they tried to move assembly to other countries like Vietnam and India, they simply can't source the components without China.


Does China need Apple?
Removing apple would cost china ten's of billions per year; easily. But China's GDP is in the trillions. The impact would be well less than 1%.

However, apple make up such a significant portion of the world's economy that crashing apple would likely send massive shockwaves throughout the world's economy *everyone* suffes in this scenario. Their relationship is symbiotic insofar that china isn't interested in self harm.

 

[ninecows]

Honestly, if you can't even agree with the basic assertion that totalitarian regimes are not a good thing, then there's really no point in discussing with you. Especially while they are actively undermining democracy throughout the world as we speak, in subtle and less subtle (*cough*Ukraine*cough*) ways.

I was also pretty clear that I was critical of their governments, not their people, who for the most part are victims who have no say in how they are ruled, and even if they disagree they can't openly speak out about it, so I'm not sure why you started talking about the people, other than to falsely accuse me of painting a broad stroke on the people of Russia and China as a whole.

My point was that like them or not, we should talk to them instead of humiliating or fighting them. Do you also provoke neighbors you don’t like?

 

[svish]

China continues to play a huge part but Apple is now slowly shifting away. India will be playing a huge role.

 

[MmkLucario]

Throughout history, China has mostly only defended herself. First, it was the Mongols. Then it was the British (Opium Wars). Then it was the Japanese.

Even when China had the highest GDP in the world a few hundred years ago, it did not invade countries.

Meanwhile:

View attachment 2179579

China invaded Vietnam after the Vietnam war and got their asses handed to them.

They make deals with other countries to build infrastructure for them then loan them money if they don’t have enough money, and guess what happens? The countries go bankrupt, China offers to let the loan slide IF they are allowed to place themselves in those countries.

China technically invaded South Korea when they pushed the UN forces back. They have a large military force sitting near the border with India. They are looking to invade Taiwan.

Also, the current China was created in 1949, not centuries ago.

 

[lysingur]

Hm - "better" can be very subjective. We, in West have a tendency to judge other countries by our standards - but those standards changed over our history and are also based on the resources & limitations of our countries. Is it really fair to judge a country that has been trying for less than 50 years to bring up the standard of living of their 1.5 billion people to a country with only 300 million people and which has had 300 years to get to its current standard of living?

I'm not making excuses for China's repression of various minorities in their country - but perhaps we should look a bit more at our own history before casting stones. E.g. China's repression of the Uyghurs is but child's play compared to what the US did to the native Americans or the West's use of slavery to benefit their countries.

China has nearly accomplished in 50 years, what took those countries centuries. It raised more people out of abject poverty than the entire populations of the US and Europe combined. Yes, the country has human rights issues and we don't like its non-democratic system of government. But there's no denying its success either. And what country is without problems? We chastise the Chinese for their treatment of the Uyghurs - yet here at home in the US, we allow 20,000+ of our citizens to be killed by guns every year. We lost 2 million+ people to Covid because our leaders thought that drinking bleach will cure it. Our children need armed teachers because they're afraid of the next mass shooting. China has none of those issues. Their children are safe in schools and nobody dies in mass shootings; despite being a 5 times bigger country, they had 1/10th people die from covid. Mass transit and telecom technology in China far outclasses the decrepit systems we have in this country. Medicine & medical treatment is far cheaper there than here. Literacy and educational levels are much higher.....and, finally, let's speak of the military threat China supposedly poses: as far as I know, China has never fought a war outside its borders - US: Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan. Lots of talk by US military haws about how China is accelerating military spending. But if you look at any data, it shows the US still outspending China by 4 to 1.

Sorry for this lengthy response.

We should understand why China was in that position in the first place of having so many people in abject poverty. The Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution decimated the hopes and dreams of an entire generation of young Chinese, not to mention widespread famine and death on a scale a Westerner cannot even begin to fathom.

Children are far from safe in China. An estimated 20,000 children are abducted in China yearly because the male-female ratio is so skewed in the countryside, thanks again to the Chinese leadership's misinformed policy.

Literacy and educational levels in China aren't higher than in the US if you take the national average. Considering most data on literacy in China is self-reported by each provincial government to Beijing, you should also take it with a grain of salt. The average years of schooling is only 6.4 years in China with a compulsory education of 9 years, compared to 12 in the US with a compulsory education of 12. What does this tell you? Many Chinese children in the interior don't finish school.

China has benefited greatly from globalization and the deindustrialization of the West. It is helped also by such an extreme disparity in education between its interior and coastal areas—the interior being the provider of almost limitless cheap labour to coastal factories that power the Chinese economy.

Without the US Navy patrolling the sea lanes, there is no way oil tankers and ships carrying Chinese goods can be transported so cheaply across oceans. Think about this before you start criticizing US military spending. China has piggybacked on the safety afforded to the world by the US military since Deng's Reform and Opening-up in the late 70s.

You seem pretty ignorant of Chinese history. China has fought plenty of wars outside of its borders under CCP, with the Soviet Union, in the Korean peninsula, in Vietnam, with Taiwan, and with India.

Most of your points are moot and we haven't even begun to brook the subject of Xi's Zero-Covid policy and the number of deaths it has directly and indirectly caused.

 

[ninecows]

China invaded Vietnam after the Vietnam war and got their asses handed to them.

They make deals with other countries to build infrastructure for them then loan them money if they don’t have enough money, and guess what happens? The countries go bankrupt, China offers to let the loan slide IF they are allowed to place themselves in those countries.

China technically invaded South Korea when they pushed the UN forces back. They have a large military force sitting near the border with India. They are looking to invade Taiwan.

Also, the current China was created in 1949, not centuries ago.

Read some history books and with an open mind. Or just some Wikipedia articles if that’s not asking too much. China has existed for more than 2000 years (although borders has probably changed over the centuries as borders do). I’m talking about the culture and people that defined the country. With the exception of the last century or so, that people and culture have been the most civilized for many, many centuries and without engaging in wars on the other side of the world.

Taiwan is to China what Cuba is to the US. End of story. How did the US react when Soviet was putting missiles on Cuba?

Have a look at this and tell me who should feel most threatened:

List of countries with overseas military bases - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

US has over the past decades put military bases as close as possible to both China and Russia, basically surrounding them.

Surely China has invaded other countries and so have Russia. They have invaded countries that they share a border with. And so has practically every other country in the world. I do not try to justify that - wars are horrible whoever is starting them. But you don’t see them repeatedly starting wars or destabilizing governments on the other side of the world just because they don’t like who’s in charge.

 

[ninecows]

And before you start with “human rights” and all that. Yes - there is very little freedom of speech in Russia, China, Cuba and a lot of other authoritarian countries. I am not claiming that everything is just fine in these countries. I am very much in favour of human rights and freedom of speech. Every time a citizen of these countries is left to rot in jail, fighting for these rights it hurts my heart.

But I am also very much a believer of that it is the people of these countries them self that should fight for these rights and if the majority of these people really wants those rights they can take them. It might not be without blod shedding and its a tough fight. The population of many western countries took that fight as well them self decades/centuries ago.

It is, however, not something that we in the west should force upon them with bombs or threats. That's NOT how you build stable democracies.

What we can do is to keep cooperating with these countries (which will to a large extent benefit their people). And then our and their leaders can take the talk about human rights in private (which I believe they should). You cannot force democracy upon anyone. You can only show them the way and inspire them peacefully.

 

[lysingur]

Read some history books and with an open mind. Or just some Wikipedia articles if that’s not asking too much. China has existed for more than 2000 years (although borders has probably changed over the centuries as borders do). I’m talking about the culture and people that defined the country. That people and culture have been the most civilized for centuries and without engaging in wars on the other side of the world.

Taiwan is to China what Cuba is to the US. End of story. How did the US react when Soviet was putting missiles on Cuba?

Have a look at this and tell me who should feel most threatened:

List of countries with overseas military bases - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

US has over the past decades put military bases as close as possible to both China and Russia, basically surrounding them.

Surely China has invaded other countries and so have Russia. They have invaded countries that they share a border with. And so has practically every other country in the world. I do not try to justify that - wars are horrible whoever is starting them. But you don’t see them repeatedly starting wars or destabilizing governments on the other side of the world just because they don’t like who’s in charge.

China has historically engaged in many offensive wars and dominated various "barbarian" groups when it was powerful, as exemplified during the Qing dynasty. However, it struggled to project power after the rise of the West in the 16th century. The Qing dynasty's downfall was primarily due to internal factors. The Qing court's corruption was so rampant that it managed to divert its entire naval modernization budget to construct the Imperial Gardens for Empress Dowager Cixi.

The US, in many ways, is a contemporary equivalent of China during "Pax Sinica," when the Chinese tributary system encompassed most of Asia.

The US can only act in its own best interests. It is unrealistic to expect American elites to be so enlightened as to prioritize the interests of others above their own, going so far as to downplay the atrocities committed by the Chinese Communist Party. China has not been idle in attempting to establish overseas military bases either, e.g., in Gwadar. Before a country can take the next logical step in imperial expansion, it must have a well-trained blue-water navy. While China may currently lag in experience, its ambitions remain undiminished.

 

[ninecows]

China has historically engaged in many offensive wars and dominated various "barbarian" groups when it was powerful, as exemplified during the Qing dynasty. However, it struggled to project power after the rise of the West in the 16th century. The Qing dynasty's downfall was primarily due to internal factors. The Qing court's corruption was so rampant that it managed to divert its entire naval modernization budget to construct the Imperial Gardens for Empress Dowager Cixi.

The US, in many ways, is a contemporary equivalent of China during "Pax Sinica," when the Chinese tributary system encompassed most of Asia.

The US can only act in its own best interests. It is unrealistic to expect American elites to be so enlightened as to prioritize the interests of others above their own, going so far as to downplay the atrocities committed by the Chinese Communist Party. China has not been idle in attempting to establish overseas military bases either, e.g., in Gwadar. Before a country can take the next logical step in imperial expansion, it must have a well-trained blue-water navy. While China may currently lag in experience, its ambitions remain undiminished.

Well... the "build empire around the whole world" has historically been a western thing. Spanish, British and now US. And yes - its done with a well trained navy.

Invading your neighbour is "normal business" for just about any country in the world. I don't appreciate it, but that's apparently what humans do.

I think that Newton 3rd law of motion have implications far beyond what he imagined. If you start pushing right up to other countries borders there's gonna be a reaction and obviously they will start pushing back. That's whats going on right now. What they lack in military budget, they can compensate for in population. But maybe if we continue to treat them with respect and not humiliate them in public it will not end in an ugly war. The worst thing you can do to any Chinese person is have them lose face.

 

[lysingur]

Well... the "build empire around the whole world" has historically been a western thing. Spanish, British and now US. And yes - its done with a well trained navy.

Invading your neighbour is "normal business" for just about any country in the world. I don't appreciate it, but that's apparently what humans do.

I think that Newton 3rd law of motion have implications far beyond what he imagined. If you start pushing right up to other countries borders there's gonna be a reaction and obviously they will start pushing back. That's whats going on right now. What they lack in military budget, they can compensate for in population. But maybe if we continue to treat them with respect and not humiliate them in public it will not end in an ugly war. The worst thing you can do to any Chinese person is have them lose face.

You should ask the People's Republic of China to do the same for the people in Taiwan. Newton's Third Law, as you so eloquently put it.

 

[ninecows]

You should ask the People's Republic of China to do the same for the people in Taiwan. Newton's Third Law, as you so eloquently put it.

Now who's doing "whataboutism" ...? We can play whataboutism with another island as well: Cuba.

Thankfully there has been a recent "thaw" in the relationship between US and Cuba, but I guess both Russia and China would just LOVE to have military bases and missiles on that island and how will the reaction from US be?

We should encourage the same thaw process between China and Taiwan. But you do NOT do that by humiliating China with promise of military support to Taiwan and making state visits. You start that process by TALKING to BOTH parties in that conflict respectfully.

 

[lysingur]

Now who's doing "whataboutism" ...? We can play whataboutism with another island as well: Cuba.

Thankfully there has been a recent "thaw" in the relationship between US and Cuba, but I guess both Russia and China would just LOVE to have military bases and missiles on that island and how will the reaction from US be?

We should encourage the same thaw process between China and Taiwan. But you do NOT do that by humiliating China with promise of military support to Taiwan and making state visits. You start that process by TALKING to BOTH parties in that conflict respectfully.

Please refer back to what I said about "The US can only act in its own best interests." The US is not obligated to care about what China feels. The same goes for any nation-state.

Not even sure what you're arguing about here.

China has invaded only neighbours so it's okay? And you're not engaging in whataboutism by comparing invading only neighbours to having overseas military bases? And China does have overseas military bases, so what exactly is your point? That the Biden administration should back off from Xi and Putin's posturing?

What does talking to both even mean? There have been talks. They went nowhere. You don't wish Joe Biden to be another Neville Chamberlain, do you?

Taiwan is a sovereign democratic country. What do you mean by "humiliating" China with a promise of military support? You ought to be ashamed.

 

[ninecows]

Please refer back to what I said about "The US can only act in its own best interests." The US is not obligated to care about what China feels. The same goes for any nation-state.

Not even sure what you're arguing about here.

China has invaded only neighbours so it's okay? And you're not engaging in whataboutism by comparing invading only neighbours to having overseas military bases? And China does have overseas military bases, so what exactly is your point? That the Biden administration should back off from Xi and Putin's posturing?

What does talking to both even mean? They have been talks. They went nowhere. You don't wish Joe Biden to be another Neville Chamberlain, do you?

Taiwan is a sovereign democratic country. What do you mean by "humiliating" China with promise of military support? You ought to be ashamed.

Since both China and Russia is a pretty big part of this planet and both have the power to annihilate any country on the planet, the US is obligated to consider how these nations FEEL, no matter how naive you think that will make Biden look.

That is of course unless you just want to see the world burn.

Promising military support to Taiwan is to humiliate China just as much as Russia or Chinese troops and missiles on Cuba would be humiliating US. Possibly even more because it is so deeply rooted in Chinese mentality that Taiwan is a part of mainland China. Are they in the right to feel humiliated? Possibly not. But it’s feelings and you are not so privileged that you can dictate how other nations should feel.

 

[ninecows]

Don’t get me wrong. Any invasion and use of violence on any country is wrong. I'm just saying that if we count former invasions of neighbouring countries in the "whataboutism" game, then very, very few countries are innocent.

And even though the talks went nowhere, doesn't mean you should stop talking. Because what's the alternative? It's when you start provoking and stop talking that you're digging the ditches deeper and increase the risk of yet another proxy war... or even worse.

 

[ericwn]

It depends on what you mean by "doing business." If doing business means just selling products into the Chinese market, this maybe a viable business model. Any other kind will inevitably lead to the decline of the companies involved. Due to short-term greed from idiot executives, many companies moved production to China. That turned out to be a huge mistake. When Apple tried to re-assert some privacy protection for their customers, the Chinese dictatorship immediately made clear that they can't do that. Now Apple is desperately trying to move out of China. It will take a long time, but I hope they will. Together with all other western companies. Isolate the regime and make them starve. Undo all of the economic ties. Isolationism is the only good policy against the CCP.

That CCP didn’t change the entire time Apple has been producing stuff there. It has always been a communist dictatorship. Bought an iPod? Build in a communist dictatorship. iPhone? Same.
Getting bent out of shape more than 20 years later about these facts? That’s just suddenly sailing with the low level nationalism that was so totally missing in the past. Folks, put your money where your mouth is and stop buying this stuff rather than cry us a MAGA river about products that were never made anywhere but in China.

Edit: of course the CCP went through changes and my intro sentence was not accurate in that point. What I meant to express is that China was and still is a communist oppressive regime.

 

[ninecows]

It depends on what you mean by "doing business." If doing business means just selling products into the Chinese market, this maybe a viable business model. Any other kind will inevitably lead to the decline of the companies involved. Due to short-term greed from idiot executives, many companies moved production to China. That turned out to be a huge mistake. When Apple tried to re-assert some privacy protection for their customers, the Chinese dictatorship immediately made clear that they can't do that. Now Apple is desperately trying to move out of China. It will take a long time, but I hope they will. Together with all other western companies. Isolate the regime and make them starve. Undo all of the economic ties. Isolationism is the only good policy against the CCP.

Oh sure... If we do that the ruling class - the pigs - in China will still grow fatter, the population will starve and you will be creating another North Korea. You will be giving the dictators an excuse to point at the west and tell their population: Look at how evil they are.

Just what the world needs. 🙄

 

[lysingur]

That CCP didn’t change the entire time Apple has been producing stuff there. It has always been a communist dictatorship. Bought an iPod? Build in a communist dictatorship. iPhone? Same.

You must not read the news if you think China under Hu is the same China under Xi.

I guess MAGA USA is the same as Brandon USA then. I guess you're right, I mean, the name hasn't changed.

 

[ninecows]

You must not read the news if you think China under Hu is the same China under Xi.

I guess MAGA USA is the same as Brandon USA then. I guess you're right, I mean, the name hasn't changed.

Power corrupts. Both Xi and Putin started out with - probably - decent intentions. And slowly the power got to their head and corrupted them. Luckily no dictator has lived forever. What you should consider what you would like the population of China (and Russia for that matter) to think of the west whenever Xi and Putin is gone. Will you give them an excuse to foster another dictator?

On a related note: Apple then moving to India. The worlds biggest democracy. For now. Democratic decoupling

Edit: One more source: Democratic backsliding

 

[ericwn]

You must not read the news if you think China under Hu is the same China under Xi.

I guess MAGA USA is the same as Brandon USA then. I guess you're right, I mean, the name hasn't changed.

Yea it’s been a great place for democracy until recently, is that what you’re telling me? Thanks for the chuckle. It was an oppressive regime twenty years ago and continues to operate as such.