Pretty big spoilerI had to wait 25+ years to be sure of it
I edited it just in case, but as far as spoilers go I guess I wouldn't call that a big one.
That being said, you explanation is much more eloquent!
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Twin Peaks (TV Series by David Lynch)
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I edited it just in case, but as far as spoilers go I guess I wouldn't call that a big one.
That being said, you explanation is much more eloquent!
For me yeah
agreed that for the story itself it is not a huge spoiler. Lynch almost solved the small mystery in FWWM but then decided not to. There is a scene in TMP that answers the question.[doublepost=1521455256][/doublepost]Here’s a blog post in which Kevin J Anderson explains why and how he dictates his drafts on micro cassettes:
http://kjablog.com/dictating-writing-hiking/
Massive SPOILERS ahead.
I am glad you enjoyed the podcast.
While “schizoid” could be the correct adjective, I would argue that albeit complex the story is more coherent than it would appear at first sight. It does require some work, which is not everyone’s cup of tea.
Ultimately I think that TP’s biggest strenghts are also its biggest weaknesses. Take the charm of the town itself. We all remember how charming it was the first time we watched it. If we say “Twin Peaks” we immediately think about a good cup of coffee, a nice cherry pie, and quite a few interesting people. Still, it wasn’t enough to survive. S2 E15-28 prove that Twin Peaks (the town) is not sufficient to make Twin Peaks. Also take Cooper himself. If we say Dale Cooper, we might think the know-it-all FBI agent that finds out a mystery much bigger than imagined; in other words, we see a strong and interesting character. Truth to the matter, he’s quite a lousy investigator. He doesn’t undestand what happened to Chet Desmon, he has no idea who killed Laura until the victim herself tells him, and he can’t even prevent another murder by the same perpetuator from happening. This AFTER he messed up with his former colleague, causing the death of his immortal beloved. Worse of all, he causes God knows how much pain and suffering by being cocky, confronting the Lodge with imperfect courage (as Hawk would say) releasing pure evil. S3 highlights Cooper’s “incompetence” even more. We can find many examples of this throughout all the seasons and even the movie itself. I firmly believe - and this is true especially after S3 - that Twin Peaks is meant to be only one thing: Laura Palmer. Or, if you will, our love of Laura Palmer. She’s the one that instructs Cooper. She’s the one that understands who Bob is. She’s the one that suffers. She’s the one that uncover how ugly the town of TP is. She’s the one that repents and goes to heaven from the Lodge (at least according to FWWM and somehow during S3). I believe that’s the point of Laura’s orb in S3E8, and also that’s the point of the very end of S3E18. Cooper is just a minor “tool” of a much greater design.
Absolutely not! You must agree or else Bob will appear in your mirror
I think we are supposed to study this work, like all other movies by Lynch (well, Dune excluded). If you follow Cooper’s pin you get into a very interesting set of questions, for example. Let me clarify one thing. When I say alternate universe I don’t mean it a-la Stephen Hawking I mean it as in different states of consciousness that are all true and the same at the same time. This goes back into Lynch’s transcendentism and such. One big clue to me is the sex scene between Diana and Cooper after he left the Lodge. Remember that Dougie, not even while awake, left the Lodge. We never see Dougie-Cooper correctly leaving the Lodge. The only time we see him leaving the Lodge is right before the sex scene. As the Ugly Little Tree Formerly Known as The Arm Who is Also The Little Man in the Red Room says, the bad Cooper has to get in before the good Cooper can leave. The Cooper that gets out of the Lodge is a very disturbed Cooper, serious, not that active. He is virtually identical to Richard, which is clearly a mix of Bad Cooper and Good Cooper. And the sex scene is downright disturbing in its mood (incredible Laura Dern in her acting during this scene; Diane feels violated yet she submit to this “ritual”).
Good points, of course. One thing to consider is that Lynch had to resort to some trick due to Silva’s death, so I am sure the situation was not really... square. And he could not eliminate Bob the same way he did with the Little Man.
I am not really sure about the innocent Leland Palmer you talk about. In S2 he’s clearly a Doppelganger. In S3 we are not really sure what is his motive. We know that he tells Cooper “Find Laura”. We also know that what appears to be a repeated use of footage in reality is not (a very nice touch by Lynch in my opinion) and we are witnessing two separate events in two different moments.
As for the Black Lodge and the White Lodge... truth to the matter we never see them. What we call the Black Lodge (the red room) is in reality the Waiting Room. As for the White Lodge, it appears that the same is true, we never see the White Lodge itself but just some manifestation of it. We are never sure about the various motives, as things are not really black and white as we would like them to be (See the Tao).
Regarding the video podcast, outstanding dissection of the show.
I am glad you enjoyed the podcast.
While “schizoid” could be the correct adjective, I would argue that albeit complex the story is more coherent than it would appear at first sight. It does require some work, which is not everyone’s cup of tea.
Ultimately I think that TP’s biggest strenghts are also its biggest weaknesses. Take the charm of the town itself. We all remember how charming it was the first time we watched it. If we say “Twin Peaks” we immediately think about a good cup of coffee, a nice cherry pie, and quite a few interesting people. Still, it wasn’t enough to survive. S2 E15-28 prove that Twin Peaks (the town) is not sufficient to make Twin Peaks. Also take Cooper himself. If we say Dale Cooper, we might think the know-it-all FBI agent that finds out a mystery much bigger than imagined; in other words, we see a strong and interesting character. Truth to the matter, he’s quite a lousy investigator. He doesn’t undestand what happened to Chet Desmon, he has no idea who killed Laura until the victim herself tells him, and he can’t even prevent another murder by the same perpetuator from happening. This AFTER he messed up with his former colleague, causing the death of his immortal beloved. Worse of all, he causes God knows how much pain and suffering by being cocky, confronting the Lodge with imperfect courage (as Hawk would say) releasing pure evil. S3 highlights Cooper’s “incompetence” even more. We can find many examples of this throughout all the seasons and even the movie itself. I firmly believe - and this is true especially after S3 - that Twin Peaks is meant to be only one thing: Laura Palmer. Or, if you will, our love of Laura Palmer. She’s the one that instructs Cooper. She’s the one that understands who Bob is. She’s the one that suffers. She’s the one that uncover how ugly the town of TP is. She’s the one that repents and goes to heaven from the Lodge (at least according to FWWM and somehow during S3). I believe that’s the point of Laura’s orb in S3E8, and also that’s the point of the very end of S3E18. Cooper is just a minor “tool” of a much greater design.
In the original TP, Dale Cooper goes through all of this to become what he has been fighting. eighteen hours, nothing gets answered, the real Dale Cooper barely shows up, then Dale and (he calls her Laura) Diane time travel...and that’s it. An elaborate joke and no punchline, a work of art, absurdity,something to admire in itself.
Something to admire, all boils down to the eye of the beholder.
Absolutely not! You must agree or else Bob will appear in your mirror
Of note they called it time travel, I called it a time travel paradox, while you described it as a parallel universe. It seems to be best described as whatever, a mishmash of possibilities as in why would an adult Laura be living in Odessa Texas and not know she was Laura Palmer? Many possibilities, after Coop came out of the Lodge in a past time, and intervened to save Laura, a time paradox existed. You can either go with the branching parallel reality, but that would not explain why Laura Palmer had forgotten her past. But to Lynch and crew, it really makes no difference. The viewer is in the position of accepting what your eyes are seeing and not questioning or stomping away in disgust.
I think we are supposed to study this work, like all other movies by Lynch (well, Dune excluded). If you follow Cooper’s pin you get into a very interesting set of questions, for example. Let me clarify one thing. When I say alternate universe I don’t mean it a-la Stephen Hawking
I mean it as in different states of consciousness that are all true and the same at the same time. This goes back into Lynch’s transcendentism and such. One big clue to me is the sex scene between Diana and Cooper after he left the Lodge. Remember that Dougie, not even while awake, left the Lodge. We never see Dougie-Cooper correctly leaving the Lodge. The only time we see him leaving the Lodge is right before the sex scene. As the Ugly Little Tree Formerly Known as The Arm Who is Also The Little Man in the Red Room says, the bad Cooper has to get in before the good Cooper can leave. The Cooper that gets out of the Lodge is a very disturbed Cooper, serious, not that active. He is virtually identical to Richard, which is clearly a mix of Bad Cooper and Good Cooper. And the sex scene is downright disturbing in its mood (incredible Laura Dern in her acting during this scene; Diane feels violated yet she submit to this “ritual”).More Spoilers:
Another aspect I’ll mention, when Bob possessed Leland Palmer, it seemed like he possessed him, he was still there in his body as evidenced by his dying words. When he died then we saw the innocent Leland Palmer in the Lodge. Yet for Coop, a doppelgänger was created, with a separate Coop in the Lodge. Another thing I did not like, was that they did a horrible job distinguishing between the Black and White Lodge. It all looked interchangeable although one side was supposed to represent good, and another represented evil. I’ll admit, that maybe they were trying to show that good and evil are all part of the human psyche, but good and bad as concepts are different enough that I’d expect a different motif.
Good points, of course. One thing to consider is that Lynch had to resort to some trick due to Silva’s death, so I am sure the situation was not really... square. And he could not eliminate Bob the same way he did with the Little Man.
I am not really sure about the innocent Leland Palmer you talk about. In S2 he’s clearly a Doppelganger. In S3 we are not really sure what is his motive. We know that he tells Cooper “Find Laura”. We also know that what appears to be a repeated use of footage in reality is not (a very nice touch by Lynch in my opinion) and we are witnessing two separate events in two different moments.
As for the Black Lodge and the White Lodge... truth to the matter we never see them. What we call the Black Lodge (the red room) is in reality the Waiting Room. As for the White Lodge, it appears that the same is true, we never see the White Lodge itself but just some manifestation of it. We are never sure about the various motives, as things are not really black and white as we would like them to be (See the Tao).
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Honestly I don’t remember how I figured out about Ed. I watched the series in 1989! As with many TV series - especially mysteries - I don’t believe you are supposed to figure out everything as soon as it appears on screen. I mean even “lighter” series like the Gilmore Girls or This is Us keep secrets from the audience for several episodes if not entire seasons. On top of that, a Lynch work is even more multi layered...
As for Diane... I will not tell you much because long-term spoilers are involved. I am not sure if you were born before the age of the internet so yeah it might be difficult to understand if you’re pretty young. Among other things, Diane serves as a particular trait of Agent Cooper. It’s something that is supposed to make Cooper a little “special” and “weird”, different than anybody else. Let’s say that for now it just makes the character as quirky as possible. Also, it allows the viewer to know what Cooper is thinking without having him talk loud to nobody like many movies and series do. However let me point out that talking to a tape recorder - or the iPhone recorder - is not strange or unique. Many busy individuals that are always on the move take notes that way, and that was true even more when mobile communication and/or digital note taking was not widespread. White House Chief of staff Haldeman used to take notes and to dictate his diary using tapes. Kevin J Anderson, a very prolific writer which is still very active, writes entire books by dictating the book’s draft on a tape recorder, usually while hiking.
[doublepost=1521454568][/doublepost]
Pretty big spoiler
I had to wait 25+ years to be sure of it
So I went back and watched starting from that gas station scene and I can see how the biker kid pulled up to Ed’s gas station and Ed behaved different towards him. It was so obvious once you pointed out the relationship to me. So it basically confirms what I thought which is the series isn’t “inaccessible” and not meant to be understood so much as it is I’m just missing important social cues that become more important later in the story. At least I know where I stand.
Answered from the Movie thread. Warning, this thread is full of spoilers, if that matters to you.
Imo, The Return requires viewing of the original series Twin Peaks, to make any real sense. Additionally the original series is where the primary element of value can be found in this viewing experience. If you have not seen it, I’d definitely watch that (on Netflix I think) to get the most possible enjoyment, if you don’t end up thinking it is too silly.
When it first aired, it was considered, an intriguing, quirky, cutting edge thriller for TV. Fire Walk With Me, answers possible questions specifically about how Laura Palmer ended up wrapped in plastic on the bank of a river, at least who killed her.
And @yaxomoxay may disagree with me, but The Return is not nearly as good as the original. And it’s final was just too far out there for my tastes. Imo, it did not add anything of value to the original series but I don’t demand agreement.
Imo, The Return requires viewing of the original series Twin Peaks, to make any real sense. Additionally the original series is where the primary element of value can be found in this viewing experience. If you have not seen it, I’d definitely watch that (on Netflix I think) to get the most possible enjoyment, if you don’t end up thinking it is too silly.
When it first aired, it was considered, an intriguing, quirky, cutting edge thriller for TV. Fire Walk With Me, answers possible questions specifically about how Laura Palmer ended up wrapped in plastic on the bank of a river, at least who killed her.
And @yaxomoxay may disagree with me, but The Return is not nearly as good as the original. And it’s final was just too far out there for my tastes. Imo, it did not add anything of value to the original series but I don’t demand agreement.
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And @yaxomoxay may disagree with me, but The Return is not nearly as good as the original. And it’s final was just too far out there for my tastes. Imo, it did not add anything of value to the original series but I don’t demand agreement.
I do disagree
for the simple reason that The Return is not meant to add to the original series or even get close to it. One of the concepts of The Return is what Heraclitus said a few thousand years ago: "No man can jump in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." In my opinion, The Return majestically explores this concept.I found The Return much deeper than the Original Series, but I think that each has its own merits and demerits, and after all, de gustibus non est disputandum!
The Return is a sequel, a continuation of the story, but an unworthy sequel imo. The original series is much more intriguing, entertaining, and coherent. I acknowledge that the result of being entertained or intrigued resides on a personal level and disagreements about such things happen, often.I do disagree
I found The Return much deeper than the Original Series, but I think that each has its own merits and demerits, and after all, de gustibus non est disputandum!
Yes and no. It's chronologically a sequel (although not in its entirety as you know), but it is also not a sequel.
Possible spoilers ahead.
The Return is intended as a journey trying to go back to Twin Peaks, but it is also the explanation of the impossibility of the proposition, both on the screen and in real life. This is why The Return is as anti-nostalgic as it can be (there are probably 30 minutes of nostalgia driven moments over 18 hours). Lynch himself in his autobiography explains that even the real town (Snoqualmie) is not the same anymore, that the feeling is totally different even in real life. The Return - in my opinion - is an amazing exploration of the impossibility of going back to what once was, among other things. Episode 17 and 18 are also clear examples of the dangers of "going back". It is, if you will, a job of introspection-oriented work similar to another masterpiece, Ingmar Bergman's Wild Strawberries. Going back, and slowly, slowly, slowly search for what isn't there anymore; the only thing left is our memories, and the name of the places. Of this, Umberto Eco at the end would say Stat rosa pristina nomine, nomina nuda tenemus (translation from wikipedia "the rose of old remains only in its name; we possess naked names." The general sense, as Eco pointed out,was that from the beauty of the past, now disappeared, we hold only the name.)
LEt the war begin!!
I acknowledge that the result of being entertained or intrigued resides on a personal level and disagreements about such things happen, often.
The beauty of art!
Just finished season #1. Wife and I love it. Start S-2 tonight.
Peaks has the feel of my all time favorite-- Carnivale, and even had a walk-on/dance-on by Michael J Anderson.
Here, my wife has a hold on the Tale, (tail), of the Twin Peaks airplane, (not). LOL
![Scan (6).jpg]( "Scan (6).jpg")
![CARNIVALE copy.jpg]( "CARNIVALE copy.jpg")
Peaks has the feel of my all time favorite-- Carnivale, and even had a walk-on/dance-on by Michael J Anderson.
Here, my wife has a hold on the Tale, (tail), of the Twin Peaks airplane, (not). LOL
I am glad you're liking it!! Season 2 goes downhill because the producers forced the writers to do two very specific things (one in particular). However, the last episode is simply amazing.
Update from recapped which is somewhat reliable:
“
David Lynch Rumors
Last week we mentioned a new David Lynch film. Turns out the project might actually be a limited series for a very popular streaming service instead. Also, they may have aged up the lead to an actress in their 30s now but nudity is apparently still required for the role.”
“
David Lynch Rumors
Last week we mentioned a new David Lynch film. Turns out the project might actually be a limited series for a very popular streaming service instead. Also, they may have aged up the lead to an actress in their 30s now but nudity is apparently still required for the role.”
Was just about to post the same thing! This is starting to feel real.
It must be! And it’s going to be a Netflix thing - after all some time ago someone snapped a pic of Lynch visiting Netflix HQ.
I just want to scream!
The only thing to be cautious about is that network rights. I'm not sure if he could do a Twin Peaks series on Netflix due to having a deal with Showtime.
The real struggle going forward will be to simultaneously try to keep up with the project in the sense that I need to know if this is actually going to happen, but at the same time trying to not catch any significant details about it so that if (or when) it actually happens I can go in as blind as possible.
I would really love to see the adventures of Toototabon fleshed out a little more! I feel like there must be a rich backstory there.
I would really love to see the adventures of Toototabon fleshed out a little more! I feel like there must be a rich backstory there.
Well, we knew that TPTR was coming... and despite the very last scene being leaked (with video) two years before its release we didn't know the huge surprises we were going to get!
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I don't think they have a deal per se, but the rights are owned by CBS. I wonder if CBS is willing to license the next step in the TP universe (maybe going into Carrie Page's world) for decades. That would mean certain cash flow without doing any effort - or even any investment - at all.
It is also possible that Lynch will do something completely different with just a few links to the TP world. I mean, TPTR had many links to his other works, so I don't see this as weird. Let's wait and see.
True, but at one point I remember dodging spoilers like I was in the Matrix, and managed to remain at least mostly spoiler free until I watched the whole thing some weeks after the final episode aired. The timeline is a bit hazy, but that's more or less correct.
Point being that in a perfect world I wouldn't really like to even know the premise before being able to watch the whole thing. That's how I watched Lost Highway, and to a tiny bit lesser degree Mulholland Drive for the first time, and those were really great experiences.
In conclusion: I'm stoked, and probably will not be able to control myself once the tidbits start rolling in.
I have on rare occasion, been very pleasantly surprised watching a title I know nothing about in advance. But from a screening standpoint, when it comes to movies, and avoiding the multitude of bad titles out there, I’m more likely to screen and want to know the premise in advance.
As you probably know because of the original which I loved, I had to see The Return, but was disappointed with it.
I think that's what makes the difference between an obsessive fan (=me), and a regular viewer with a sound mind (=you). I think I am going to watch anything that Mr. Lynch does, no matter what; I am ready for disappointment, but in the end I'll watch anything he produces. At times I will get incredibly surprised (see The Straight Story...)
And for this, I'll never forgive you! ?????
Wait...there's a possible third series, with Netflix?
Hell, I'm just getting started on the second series on Showtime.
(I waited this long because I'm not willing to shell out for Showtime just to see one show. But we're getting a free month and they're running a marathon, so my patience is being rewarded. It's DVR time!
(That said, I've just finished the first episode, and boy was it slow-moving and relatively pointless. For all the damn good coffee those people drink, you'd think they'd move faster than someone in a hypnotic trance...underwater...on Benadryl.)
That all said, if it's gonna be on Netflix, I hope they don't screw it up. I still haven't forgiven them for Lost in Space and The Haunting of Hill House.
Hell, I'm just getting started on the second series on Showtime.
(I waited this long because I'm not willing to shell out for Showtime just to see one show. But we're getting a free month and they're running a marathon, so my patience is being rewarded. It's DVR time!
(That said, I've just finished the first episode, and boy was it slow-moving and relatively pointless. For all the damn good coffee those people drink, you'd think they'd move faster than someone in a hypnotic trance...underwater...on Benadryl.)
That all said, if it's gonna be on Netflix, I hope they don't screw it up. I still haven't forgiven them for Lost in Space and The Haunting of Hill House.