UK Network Operators Target iCloud Private Relay in Complaint to Regulator

[DrV]

Give me a damned break. Europe can’t have it both ways. Can’t want privacy and then support this crap.

If you mean the EU by "Europe", then it might be worth checking the list of the member states. Very notably, the UK is not on the list any more.

In general, the EU emphasizes the importance of privacy and end-to-end encrypted communication. Some member states (e.g. Germany) have not been entirely comfortable with this, but the EU still seems to be much more privacy-oriented than the UK, the US, or any other large countries.

 

[_Spinn_]

This is total BS. This is good for consumers and bad for the Network Operator's wallets. How do they feel about VPNs?

 

[Treq]

This is total BS. This is good for consumers and bad for the Network Operator's wallets. How do they feel about VPNs?

How does who feel about VPNs? Your comment feels like you are accusing the government regulators of something, when we haven't even heard the regulators stance on this yet. Just that a trade association has complained to them. They haven't made a decision or even weighed in yet. I could be wrong about your comment and if so, sorry for my misunderstanding, but that's how it reads to me.

 

[Pezimak]

So turning London into Londongrad isn't seen by them as a security risk to their country, but Apple's privacy service is? Hmmmm, sounds like in the UK, just as in the USA, money talks and ? walks, as they say...

Bit OT but it’s been like that for a while now. I mean look at the Oligarchs and the laundry service London banks have been providing for years now.

Anyway this is a complaint by the industries representative body not the government regarding national security.

 

[mcnallym]

All my ISP needs to know for demand is how much data I am using. Where the connection is too doesn’t matter.

 

[coolfactor]

I agree with you, but I've never understood why people are surprised that operators are "self-serving." Do you/we actually think Apple is anything but?

Apple is not a knight in shining armour. It is very much using all of its leverage to get you deeper into its ecosystem to spend more money on Apple hardware and services and less on competitors'.

The question is -- and always was -- where is the line? I'm not convinced that Apple has crossed it, at least not consistently, but that doesn't mean that in all of these complaints Apple is always the good guy. Apple has built wonderful things that have improved our lives, but it can also be a nasty bully.

Of course Apple is self-serving. There's nothing wrong with being self-serving. We all are — by getting jobs, buying cars, houses, boats...

But it's about balance. We may own a fancy house, but we should also contribute to the greater good of society and the world when we have something extra to give. Apple walks that balance nicely — creating a strong consumer-first experience, and if that translates into more sales for them, well, that's their earned reward. Consumers are still choosing.

The arguments made by UK Mobile are completely anti-consumer, pro-business. The closest comparison to Apple products is the lack of upgradeability, where consumers are forced to replace devices rather than upgrade them.

UK Mobile wants to take choice away from consumers, to benefit themselves.

 

[nsayer]

The only thing I don't like about Private Relay is that it's limited to Safari and Mail. I'd love nothing more than for it to be an optional standard feature of the entire network stack.

Related: this is why everyone has an app instead of a mobile website. The apps are workarounds for browser features like ad blockers or anonymizers.

 

[no_idea]

“Apple users have suffered a worse browsing experience…”

Oh the agony of a marketer not knowing what to put on pop up ads for me….

 

[DrV]

Exactly. This is just one of the problems with giving companies the same rights as individuals. Accountability. How do you hold a corporation accountable for crimes. If an individual would be imprisoned for 5 years and unable to work, do you shut down a company for 5 years and put it's assets in receivership? As for your point about groups pooling funds for political power... that's a problem. Money shouldn't be involved in politics at all. All political contributions should be banned and campaigns should be publicly funded. The ideas and policies should be what win the day, not how much funding a candidate has.

As a corporate decision-maker quite high in the hierarchy, I am very well aware of the fact that if I say something stupid in public, I may end up in jail. The details depend on jurisdiction, but there is a lot of regulation (e.g., EU Market Abuse Directive) which sets quite strict restrictions on what listed companies can, cannot, must and must not say. Companies do not enjoy the same freedom of speech as individuals, nor should they. They still need to be able to communicate their views. (For example, I do not like the fact that if I travel to Russia, I may find myself on a non-recreational camp in Siberia for 15 years, as I was part of a team making a decision to retreat from Russia and openly communicate the political motivation behind the decision.)

Lobbying, on the other hand, is a different story. All democratic countries have rules and regulations on lobbying; lobbyists may need to be registered, they may meet legislators or civil servants only during office hours, no business gifts allowed, meeting time may be limited, etc. In some countries (the US included), offering a cup of coffee (no milk or sugar) is not allowed. Lobbyists must keep to the truth, and all information given by lobbyists must be accurate (but they are not required to give a completely balanced view).

Prohibiting lobbying would be a very bad idea. Lobbyists are important information sources for politicians and civil servants. They do not necessarily give the complete picture, but they can give important pieces to the puzzle.

I do agree that lobbying needs to be as transparent as possible. I also think political funding is somthing that needs to be completely transparent. Banning all external funding is, however, not as straightforward as it looks. If there are no funds for campaigning, social media becomes the primary medium. And the social media is — drumroll — controlled by non-neutral entities.

Of course, this circus about Apple Relay is complete excreta taurii. However, it is not only business-related, there are also some government agencies trying to have a wide access to the Internet data. So, this is a bad example of corporate lobbying.

 

[mjs916]

Definition of WHINING

producing or emitting a prolonged, high-pitched sound : producing a whine; complaining or inclined to complain in a childish or petulant manner… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Thanks. I wasn’t correcting the use of “whining”. I was adding “whinging” as my own description of their behavior.

 

[mjs916]

I lose internet on my iPhone, and turn off Private Wifi Address, and it comes back. Then drops again, and I turn it on again, and it comes back. Not sure if this is a hardware problem, or a feature problem. Added with the issues with Private Relay, the pile of potential issues causing this gets rather deep. Am I the only one feeling like we need more information on how and why it works, and doesn't?

I had forgotten but I experienced that in iOS 14 with my home network connection when Private Wi-Fi Address was turned on. Haven’t had that problem in some time. Do you happen to have a mesh WiFi network also? Mine seemed to drop when I was done working for the day and went to the living room and my iPhone decided to hop to the next router.

As mentioned though I haven’t had that issue in quite some time. I’ll try to remember what I might have done to resolve it and will follow-up with you if I do.

 

[Treq]

As a corporate decision-maker quite high in the hierarchy, I am very well aware of the fact that if I say something stupid in public, I may end up in jail. The details depend on jurisdiction, but there is a lot of regulation (e.g., EU Market Abuse Directive) which sets quite strict restrictions on what listed companies can, cannot, must and must not say. Companies do not enjoy the same freedom of speech as individuals, nor should they. They still need to be able to communicate their views. (For example, I do not like the fact that if I travel to Russia, I may find myself on a non-recreational camp in Siberia for 15 years, as I was part of a team making a decision to retreat from Russia and openly communicate the political motivation behind the decision.)

Lobbying, on the other hand, is a different story. All democratic countries have rules and regulations on lobbying; lobbyists may need to be registered, they may meet legislators or civil servants only during office hours, no business gifts allowed, meeting time may be limited, etc. In some countries (the US included), offering a cup of coffee (no milk or sugar) is not allowed. Lobbyists must keep to the truth, and all information given by lobbyists must be accurate (but they are not required to give a completely balanced view).

Prohibiting lobbying would be a very bad idea. Lobbyists are important information sources for politicians and civil servants. They do not necessarily give the complete picture, but they can give important pieces to the puzzle.

I do agree that lobbying needs to be as transparent as possible. I also think political funding is somthing that needs to be completely transparent. Banning all external funding is, however, not as straightforward as it looks. If there are no funds for campaigning, social media becomes the primary medium. And the social media is — drumroll — controlled by non-neutral entities.

Of course, this circus about Apple Relay is complete excreta taurii. However, it is not only business-related, there are also some government agencies trying to have a wide access to the Internet data. So, this is a bad example of corporate lobbying.

I was not suggesting no political funding, just none with any attachments. All the funding should be public funding. Every candidate over a certain percentage of support would get the same amount and air time/internet political ads. The people need to reclaim the power over the means of production. Lobbing should be limited to individuals being able to send letters and make phone calls to their representatives. No campaign contributions, no PACs, basically no way for people who have tons of money to have more political power than those with less. this trade association is lobbing against something that is bad for their business, it doesn't matter that it is objectively bad for the people. They do it to make more money and gain more power. The power should belong to the individuals.

 

[tucupeis]

i will get private relay today.

 

[cmaier]

You have free speech, your company shouldn't. Whether you are the sole proprietor or CEO of a mega corp. Corporations aren't people and shouldn't have the rights afforded to people. They need to be regulated and controlled by the people.

Why? Are companies run by robots? Are they not made of people? You keep saying “should” as if it’s engraved in stone someplace. So I’ll play too. All rights should be extended to any group, collection, or organization of people as a natural law, and rights should only be removed if there is a very good overriding reason.

 

[dypeterc]

You know an argument is bad faith when Microsoft, a company that was once-charged with monopolistic practices, argues that Apple, its competitor, is providing ”bad service and experience” therefore should be punished by regulators and not its customers. Shouldn’t the market drive this? If Apple customers are unhappy with Private Relay, which is easily turned on/off, then they’ll vote with their wallet.

 

[ric22]

As a consumer from the UK I want these organisations to be lobbying against data mining/tracking etc. not against technology to prevent it.

Spot on. Private Relay is great for users, but makes it harder for our ISP's to monetize us. F them and their BS complaint.

 

[Treq]

Why? Are companies run by robots? Are they not made of people? You keep saying “should” as if it’s engraved in stone someplace. So I’ll play too. All rights should be extended to any group, collection, or organization of people as a natural law, and rights should only be removed if there is a very good overriding reason.

I'll bite. Are all employees and shareholders aloud to vote on what the organization does with those rights? People have the rights. Not the organization. Even the shareholder point is invalid because if a shareholder has more shares than another, that shareholder usually gets more say and we are back to the more money you have the more say you have. This is antithetical to democracy. One person one vote. Most problems with government can be traced back to this point. Corporations have too much power and very little accountability. It's about time the people start to take back their power as a "natural law".

 

[VaruLV]

I live in EU, I hope they dont target it and I also hope that UK will get nowhere with it.
I love how fast Private relay is and how it adds to security online.
Its not a VPN, but its so fast and comes with no speed/bandwidth limitations, at least I havent felt any speeds bumps.
Also, I dont have to buy anything extra to get it, just my regular paid iCloud+ subscription and one slider in iOS settings and thats it.
Love it.

 

[iPhoneFan5349]

I absolutely love how the language in these types instances reinforces the need for them to be and stay in place.

Exactly. They are complaining they can’t spy on us looool. Private relay isn’t even free, ***** are they talking about?

 

[Sophisticatednut]

If you mean the EU by "Europe", then it might be worth checking the list of the member states. Very notably, the UK is not on the list any more.

In general, the EU emphasizes the importance of privacy and end-to-end encrypted communication. Some member states (e.g. Germany) have not been entirely comfortable with this, but the EU still seems to be much more privacy-oriented than the UK, the US, or any other large countries.

That’s ironic how Uk talks about freedoms, but ended upp taking it away after they left EU

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Give me a damned break. Europe can’t have it both ways. Can’t want privacy and then support this crap.

Lol, EU is making laws to implement encryption laws. UK is the authoritarian ones

 

[Treq]

That’s ironic how Uk talks about freedoms, but ended upp taking it away after they left EU

100% on brand for moderns conservatives, but this isn't about the government... yet. It's about corporations trying to get the government to force apple to let them spy on you.
the government hasn't weighed in yet.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

So individuals should not be allowed to pool funds to address issue sof concern since that gives them more money tahn an individual to get tehir viewpoint out?

Individuals? Yes as long as it’s made of only individuals. Companies? Not a chance

So Elon Musk should not be permitted to talk about Tesla? Steve Jobs about Apple when he was CEO?

They can talk about whatever they want as people.

Apple certainly is speaking out in defense of Private Relay, should they not be allowed to do that in response to teh proposal? And lobby against it?

They should do that openly and transparently. Like they do in EU.

So who should be held responsible? The CEO? The shipping clerk who shipped the product and thus played a role in the outcome?

Yes the corporate board should be held responsible. Or any executive bellow that should be responsible but failed to be responsible irrespective of intent. Corporate interest should be limited next to citizens interest

 

[Sophisticatednut]

100% on brand for moderns conservatives, but this isn't about the government... yet. It's about corporations trying to get the government to force apple to let them spy on you.
the government hasn't weighed in yet.

Well, they can do that because they already are allowed to do these unethical things.

I was shocked to learn what UK ISP can do compared to Sweden.

 

[0ceans]

This complaint reads like an advertisement for Private Relay. Like, thanks for confirming how great this is.