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Huntn

macrumors Core
Original poster
May 5, 2008
23,492
26,609
The Misty Mountains
People have been proclaiming WoW is dying since day 1. They gained 3mil subs for WoD and then promptly lost those. It's not that WoW isn't a good MMO, it's more that the dev refuse to take any feedback into account. Something this group has been doing since the start of the WoD Alpha. Even bug fixes were never addressed until well after the game went Live. I blame the devs the most for the fiasco that is WoD. I blame Celest, Ion and the whole group. When your team takes this approach they know better than the paying clients, then nothing will go over well. But, in the end WoW still controls the MMO market and will for years and years. Even FFXIV, as much as people think of how great it is still only has the same population numbers as Vanilla WoW. Also, SE f'd up their Mac client and pulled sales of that, so there's an even less chance it'll ever get to WoW popularity.

And they're lazy. Plain and simple. One "major" patch was made over the course of a weekend by two developers. And they called it a major patch, which is...laughable. Most of these patches are things which have already been in game but they dragged out the content over the course of things. It's a bit stupid. I'd still be subscribed had it not been for this xpac after 10 continuous years not including all the F&F Alphas and Betas since, starting with the original Alpha of the game.

But, it's not 100% of the devs fault for the state of the game. The players, all of them who kept wanting to "return" to a Vanilla-esque time period. I'm not lost in the fact that in the end, players cannot control the game but they [developers] never took all these requests and turned them into an entire expansion.

Some examples include; people wanted to veer away from needing theorycraft for their classes, blizz pruned everything back to an extreme so most are 1-2 button rotations. People wanted player housing, so they were given Garrisons to tied them over. Players wanted less dailies, so they were given 1-2 dailies per day. Players loathed Valor/Justic points, so they got rid of those. Players didn't want to feel obligated to run 5mans more than necessary, so they took out any point of those. Players complained LFR/casuals should never get them same gear as regular raiders because ya know, they're less than... Gone. Players wanted easier reps or none at all as they were tired of the grind. The current reps were put in very last minute and made to be worse than how earned in the past, minus Vanilla where you had to grind thousands of mobs to get to exalted. For years, players complained how "casuals" were ruining the game, so they made content aimed towards raiders. This doesn't include the mess they made to their pvp content this expansion, either.

The list goes on but there used to be a time when the most feedback devs would take were bug fixes, game changing issues. Now that they designed an entire expansion around player content requests. Maybe they'll have learned their lesson and won't repeat this sham of an expansion in the future, but I doubt it. =P

Interesting! As a self described casual player putting in 20 hrs per week (incoherent? ;)) first ran into the problem facing the WoW end game, May 2005, which is the problem for virtually every MMORPG in existence. I accept its limits and move on (not critiquing you) while admitting I've come back several times to visit. :) I last time for MoP was the shortest lived. :(
 

Dirtyharry50

macrumors 68000
May 17, 2012
1,769
183
I got an invite to play for free for seven days very recently so I took the bait. I wound up logging in twice to visit my characters, particularly the three with garrisons and collect their free 500 resources x 2. Two of them had just gotten the garrison and done nothing with it yet but I had them parked there grabbing resources out of the box whenever full. They are both just under the cap of 10k resources now so nice if I ever wind up playing them as they have that to start building with, etc. without being held up for resources.

The main, a troll druid is capped for resources too. I didn't even bother to send his followers out. They were all capped for levels and gear with a good spread of abilities or whatever when I left last time. I did the grab the ores and herbs stuff, spent resources on something, I forget what not, grabbed the free potions from the alchemy guy.

Logged...

I'm not ready yet but there was something fun about being there just the same if that makes any sense. I think I have achieved ultra casual status at this point. I'm fine with it too. Just tooling around in slow motion seems to work for me in MMOs when I bother at all.

And to think that once upon a time in my crazy youth (sort of youth) I was a hardcore 6 day a week raider in EverQuest in the top guild on my server in uber gear galore. Ah, the memories but I can't ever do that again. I am glad I got to then but I just can't ever do that again.
 

Dirtyharry50

macrumors 68000
May 17, 2012
1,769
183
Yes so many memories :) from vanilla to LK. Quite some years. Helped my son to set it up on his computer when it came out and good hooked myself. Hehe.

I remember my girls laughing at old dad playing Asheron's Call when it was a new release. I guess that would have been around 1999 or 2000. Soon, they were always watching me play and wanting to play too. They took over my computer on me. The only solution was to get them their own PCs. So I ordered them both nice ones, better than I had and our first home network was born. Back then, this meant an Intel network that used the wires in the house. Haha! It worked well though. They played the game a lot all that summer until some mean person tricked them out of all of their money offering them a house to buy and then didn't give it to them.

They never played Asheron's again after that and in fact, they never played computer games again after that either. I can't tell you how upset I was by all that and how helpless i felt when I contacted Turbine, asked them to review the server logs and they did nothing to make it right. :(
 

You are the One

macrumors 6502a
Dec 25, 2014
633
795
In the present
They never played Asheron's again after that and in fact, they never played computer games again after that either. I can't tell you how upset I was by all that and how helpless i felt when I contacted Turbine, asked them to review the server logs and they did nothing to make it right. :(


Maybe it was a blessing in disguise :)
 

jruschme

macrumors 6502
Dec 20, 2011
265
30
Brick, NJ
So, it sounds like Blizzard is keeping its promise to roll out the next expansion faster than they did the current one. (Which makes sense since patch 6.2 was supposed to be the last one of this expansion.)

Based on previous speculation, I'd say that they will announce the next expansion on the 6th but the big details will come at Blizzcon and the beta starting soon after that.

I just hope they don't change the system requirements much. I'm kind of at the low end as it is.
 

Khalanad75

macrumors 6502a
Jul 8, 2015
543
1,881
land of confusion
I remember my girls laughing at old dad playing Asheron's Call when it was a new release. I guess that would have been around 1999 or 2000. Soon, they were always watching me play and wanting to play too. They took over my computer on me. The only solution was to get them their own PCs. So I ordered them both nice ones, better than I had and our first home network was born. Back then, this meant an Intel network that used the wires in the house. Haha! It worked well though. They played the game a lot all that summer until some mean person tricked them out of all of their money offering them a house to buy and then didn't give it to them.

They never played Asheron's again after that and in fact, they never played computer games again after that either. I can't tell you how upset I was by all that and how helpless i felt when I contacted Turbine, asked them to review the server logs and they did nothing to make it right. :(

Asheron's had a great community for the most part (Darktide aside) up until they released housing. Then it seemed that everyone spread out and that's when the scammers surged.

I do believe that was one of the reason that Blizzard went with soulbound items. Cuts down on the ,"Hey, let me borrow your Hoary Mattekar robe for a screenshot," type scams.
 

MacAlien

macrumors 6502
Oct 17, 2012
499
171
Boston
So, it sounds like Blizzard is keeping its promise to roll out the next expansion faster than they did the current one. (Which makes sense since patch 6.2 was supposed to be the last one of this expansion.)

Based on previous speculation, I'd say that they will announce the next expansion on the 6th but the big details will come at Blizzcon and the beta starting soon after that.

I just hope they don't change the system requirements much. I'm kind of at the low end as it is.


Blizzcon isn't until... November? Seems foolhardy to wait till then. And then stick to their traditional Alpha-Beta-release schedule of the past. I'd imagine the Beta will commence in November along with Blizzcon if they're truly trying to stick with the 'every 2 year' xpac release. But who knows.

Also, they're usually pretty good about supporting old machines. Just depends on whether your system can run 10.11, as they should be near stopping support of some older OS again.
 

Jovian9

macrumors 68000
Feb 19, 2003
1,968
110
Planet Zebes
Two year release cycles aren't going to cut it for this pack. We're less than a year in and there are no more major patches. They need to push out the beta for the next one soon. Even 18 months of WoD is going to be a problem for this game.

Also, Blizz does a pretty good job of supporting old machines. It's the operating systems that they drop support for.
 

jruschme

macrumors 6502
Dec 20, 2011
265
30
Brick, NJ
Also, they're usually pretty good about supporting old machines. Just depends on whether your system can run 10.11, as they should be near stopping support of some older OS again.

Well, in my case, I'm running WoW on a pair of mid-2009 MBPs, a 13" and a 17". The 17" has the nVidia 9600M GT which (I think) is the lowest supported GPU currently. The 13" has the 9400M integrated graphics which is technically below the minimum.

Future support is mostly going to depend on what, if any, changes they make to the rendering engine and whether that moves the bar. Since Blizzard has supposedly committed to Metal, it at least begs the question of whether they could go Metal-only without pissing off too much of the Mac user base.
 

MacAlien

macrumors 6502
Oct 17, 2012
499
171
Boston
Two year release cycles aren't going to cut it for this pack. We're less than a year in and there are no more major patches. They need to push out the beta for the next one soon. Even 18 months of WoD is going to be a problem for this game.

Also, Blizz does a pretty good job of supporting old machines. It's the operating systems that they drop support for.


Well, it's plausible since supposedly WoD is considered part 1 or 2 xpacs that everything's all ready to go and the game may go live sooner than anticipated. Will have to see on the 6th.
 

Dirtyharry50

macrumors 68000
May 17, 2012
1,769
183
Asheron's had a great community for the most part (Darktide aside) up until they released housing. Then it seemed that everyone spread out and that's when the scammers surged.

I do believe that was one of the reason that Blizzard went with soulbound items. Cuts down on the ,"Hey, let me borrow your Hoary Mattekar robe for a screenshot," type scams.

I checked into AC & AC2 just for the heck of it. AC is still running but maintenance mode now. No story updates anymore since last year. AC2 was rereleased as a beta which it will be now forever I think just as a bonus for AC 1 subscribers. Both games are now free to play if you buy AC 1 for 10 bucks as a one time thing. That's it after that. They are not typical f2p model or anything, the games as is are just free to play as long as the servers remain up after paying the 10 spot. In a very cool move on their part, they are also helping some users over time to establish free servers and giving them the server code I presume to allow the game to live on indefinitely. I believe this only applies to AC 1.

Sorry, I know that's off topic but where AC came up here I just wanted to toss that info out for anybody interested. These are both old Windows MMOs, so no Mac versions for anyone not already aware of that.

We now return you to your regularly schedule discussion of the addiction known as WoW...

By the way, that reminds me of one of the best guild names I've seen in WoW over the years. They called themselves: "WoW Ruined Our Lives"
 

Dirtyharry50

macrumors 68000
May 17, 2012
1,769
183
Blizzard just announced that they are now down to 5.6 Million subscribers from 7.1 Million subscriber last quarter.

I am not surprised. They made a lot of mistakes in the most recent expansion in my opinion. WoW has long been a very alt friendly game and it is not uncommon at all for many players to have a lot of alts. All of those people, the sane ones anyway, ran into a wall with the garrisons being tied to crafting and to some degree character advancement in various ways. For anyone with alts, it quickly became a chore running each one through various daily tasks at the garrison which could chew up a decent amount of time. Naturally, some people mastered this and did it fairly quickly but I think for most mere mortals it became a pain in the rear more than fun the longer they did it.

I invested in maxing out one garrison very nicely, got two alts leveled up and parked in two more garrisons and then just ran out of steam. I just couldn't see coming up with all the gold needed for expansion, the time spent doing all the things one does there, etc. on more toons. I'd had enough after just one time through myself but then I do not live in virtual worlds to the extent I once did when I played EverQuest. I like to have time for other games too, not to mention stuff like personal relationships, going outdoors, watching a movie maybe, etc.

I felt like Warlords took the grind to a whole new level that felt less optional per character to me. Yes, you could actually skip it I guess but those characters would miss a lot as a result.

The other issue was a tendency for the garrisons to isolate players from one another as garrison grinding is largely a solo affair. A lot of casual players would log in and just do that and then have less time to go out into the world with other people perhaps.

Maybe I am overstating some of this stuff and it is just my own subjective view but that's how it all felt to me. I feel separate garrisons were a bad design decision and that a single garrison shared by all characters on the same account, same faction, same server would have been a very good thing that would have cut down on a lot of busy work. I think they went a little overboard with the money sink there as well. It is expensive doing a complete build up of one garrison, never mind a bunch of them and again, I don't know who with a semi-normal life would have time to maintain a bunch of them and still go out and do stuff like I don't know, maybe group, quest, kill monsters?

The other thing is, even if you played just one character which again, in that game is pretty rare, once you tricked out you garrison, maxed crafting if you like doing that and then either maxed just questing if casual or grouping or raiding or whatever there really wasn't anything compelling to do. It just felt like more of the same old same old stuff. I think the game like all MMOs is showing its age.

There is a reveal of the next expansion happening via a live steam presentation on the 6th of this month (so two days from this writing) at noon pacific time I believe it is. There should be info about this on the Battle.net site for anyone interested. I am going to try to catch that and see what they have up their sleeve for the next one. Hopefully it solves some of the problems I note here. It'll be interesting to see where the heck do they go from where they are now with WoW.
 

antonis

macrumors 68020
Jun 10, 2011
2,085
1,009
As well-said above, right now WoW is at a historical low (except during the first launching months of vanilla, of course).
Blizzard will temporarily get some subscriptions back as they do with every expansion, but the big picture shows where things are going. I don't see how they can reverse this without taking a 180-degree turn in their long-term decisions.

Are they going to restore the real classes and talent trees instead of this pre-made child nonsense ? Can they really steer the gameplay so it is not a constant epic-grinding fest ? Can they restore the concept of ring-cities and revert the garrison idea so it will not isolate players (which is the epitome of any MMO game) ? Can they bring back the real dungeoning/raiding that it will not be an elitist gear check but fun for a change ? I won't even go into all the other problems like community and poor storylines/quests, the crafting-system joke etc.

I don't keep high hopes for this game anymore, although I'm sure it will be profitable for some time more down the road. But I'm not a Blizzard shareholder, so this is irrelevant to me.
 

Blujelly

macrumors 65816
Sep 2, 2012
1,275
477
South East England
Still played it after BC but I started to loose hope for it then, gave up about 8 months ago give or take.

Last time I played the reduced all the stats which I liked, I know most people didn't but I assume they weren't original WoW players who didn't have to grind there life away :p

But I'd love to see I complete U-turn with in the game, take it back to some of the core when WoW was at its best!
 

Dirtyharry50

macrumors 68000
May 17, 2012
1,769
183
For me there is still fun to be had with WoW but I would tend to enjoy just leveling alts, especially little ones in the starter areas I haven't done yet, particularly playing through old world zones even if some of them have been changed. I don't mind the changes overall that I've seen. It can be fun doing stuff like running my highest level character through an old world dungeon, just to do it. I earned full heirlooms for my entire crew which consists of one of every class with all races represented but a leaning towards Tauren and Forsaken. I have a number of parked characters who are only level 1 or 5 that will be fun to play just by myself at a leisurely pace.

There is some fun to be had for me doing battlegrounds maybe and the pet battles I liked but I am not grinding anything and I am not hurrying with anything. I don't go out of my way pursuing collectible stuff, I have plenty I've acquired over the years that I like. I don't really need lots more of that.

So for me it's possible to have fun playing a very casual game when I am in the mood. After a break it feels fresh and fun again for a while and when it loses that sparkle for me, I just cancel and take another break. Last time I did get into some dungeon runs and did all the initial ones, passed the test in two specs with my druid to run heroics and did some raid finder raids with the guild which was good enough for me just to see them. If I don't push myself and don't worry about what other people are doing, in other words get sucked into a competition that can only be won (sort of) with ridiculous amounts of time spent not really having fun, I'm fine. I think this is pretty much the secret to having a good time in any MMO for me now. I just do my own thing and I have no intention of rushing, competing to have uber such and such gear or any of that. If my gear is nice enough for the content I am playing in, that's fine. One doesn't need more than that which just turns on God-mode basically at which point why even bother playing? That said, the God-mode of doing an old dungeon with a high level is fun but it is because of the scope of it, taking on tons of mobs such that if you are too careless you can still manage to get yourself killed if you get swarmed, etc. That's still fun.

In EverQuest I went back to the oldest world zones and killed classic dragons like Zlandicar with my cleric for fun and sometimes I did stuff with him to get a cool rare loot item that was no drop for an alt. I'd park the alt where they needed to be to loot the prize. Then I'd camp the mob with the cleric, kill it eventually and log out, log in the alt and presto! Wicked cool rare item for the alt. Stuff like that is good solo fun to me. :D
 

Hastings101

macrumors 68020
Jun 22, 2010
2,341
1,463
K
The game is really showing its age, so I doubt it will ever really regain those higher subscription numbers again. I still play and have been really enjoying it, but I like to do things like earning achievements. The average person would get to max level, do PvP/try raiding for a couple of weeks, and then have nothing at all to do.
 
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Plutonius

macrumors G3
Feb 22, 2003
9,038
8,407
New Hampshire, USA
The other issue was a tendency for the garrisons to isolate players from one another as garrison grinding is largely a solo affair. A lot of casual players would log in and just do that and then have less time to go out into the world with other people perhaps.

I still have no idea why Blizzard located the garrisons where they did. They should have made them instanced areas off of a city. They also should have done a much better job on the cities in Draenor.
 
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