Who's going Surface Book?

[wct097]

Not planning on going with the Surface Book unless Apple really hoses up the Skylake MBP (like all USB-C w/o USB3.0 and no discrete GPU), but I chortle at the ever present fanboy claim of crashes, sub-par quality, and security under Windows. Clearly things that are simply parroted over and over while worshiping a poster of Steve Job and not having any real world experience to back up the claims.

I use Windows daily on my home workstation and my office workstation. I cannot remember the last crash or BSOD I had in Windows, but I can tell you that my MBP crashes literally every day. Before you point fingers at 3rd party applications, understand that it ALWAYS crashes with Safari in the foreground. I've also had major problems with literally every MBP I've purchased in the past 6 years. Logic boards, screens, power boards, etc. Very expensive. Never had one last longer than 2.5 years without needing major service. This machine has been in the shop no less than 6 times and shipped back to Apple once without resolving the crashing issue.

Apple's quality is garbage and OSX only beats Windows in marginal areas. The simple fact that I cannot expand a window to full screen with one click is almost enough to ditch OSX entirely. The saving grace of OSX is Time Machine and a good incremental backup solution and network appliance.

 

[wct097]

Forgot to add that at least M$ has released a 6th gen proc laptop. The 15" MBP is still using a 2 generation old proc. It's pathetic to think that in January 2016, we'll probably still see Apple selling $3k machines with Haswell procs.

 

[Barna Biro]

I was initially really considering purchasing a Surface Book as my next laptop, but after seeing some recent reviews, I have to say that it looks quite underwhelming. I'll most likely go for a 15" rMBP after it gets a CPU / GPU refresh ( currently using a 1st gen maxed out 13" rMBP ). I'm sure that the Surface Book will please quite many people, I'm just not going to be one of them... who knows, perhaps v2? Beside performance, I really, really dislike that screen wobbling... my 13" rMBP's screen doesn't even flinch. Considering the amount of time I spend staring at a computer and typing, I somehow feel that the wobbly screen of the Surface Book would drive me crazy ( I do use my laptop almost exclusively on my lap ). Perhaps it would be fair to give it a chance and try it out live, but the specs are already not what I was expecting, so I'll just pass on this version.

 

[duervo]

Not me. I'll let other people be the guinea pigs.

Maybe once the design matures a little ... Maybe.

Same reason why I didn't retire my 2012 cMBP and get a rMB. I've played the gen1 lottery enough in the past to not bother with it anymore. Similar reason to why I couldn't be bothered to tinker with Linux to get specific bits and pieces of bleeding edge hardware to work ... Spent enough time doing that crap when I was younger, now I'm a curmudgeonly old coot ... Get off my lawn!

 

[Acronyc]

I'm intrigued by the Surface Book, it looks like a great product that I'd like to try and I believe there is definitely some good innovation there. The dGPU is one thing I've been wishing Apple would include in its 13" line of Macs for a while now and as far as a convertible PC it looks like one of the best out there.

One thing I've always liked about Macs is the synergy between the hardware and the software, and Microsoft seems to have gotten it mostly right this time. Controlling the hardware and the software lets you build a really nice machine.

That being said, there are a few things that put me off. The first is actually one thing I really like about it - the dGPU. Microsoft and NVIDIA are being rather vague about what GPU is in there, which makes me lose a bit of trust. Why won't they tell consumers? It also only has 1GB of dedicated RAM, which is the same as my 15" rMBP from three years ago. Sure, the Surface Book will probably have a more powerful GPU than current incarnations of the 13" rMBP, but by how much, and what about compared to the 15" rMBP?

The second is actually Windows 10. It looks great and I've tried it a bit. But I also had huge problems with it. I installed it on my wife's computer (she's a Windows girl) and it went okay. Looked nice and my wife liked it. Then after an automatic update the keyboard and mouse no longer worked. That's kind of a deal breaker in a notebook computer. Restore, try to get Windows to stop automatically updating, it still did, and the keyboard and mouse still broke. Many hours were wasted and finally my wife went back to Windows 8.1 on her 1.5 year old computer. I know this won't happen with everyone, but it left me with a bad first impression of Windows 10.

Third, and this is a very subjective, is that I don't need a tablet/PC hybrid and I don't want one. My workflow doesn't require a tablet, and the Surface Book in tablet form looks rather heavy and unwieldy. My tablet use is primarily consumption and a little bit of work if need be, and I don't need a table that weighs over 700 grams to do that.

Which brings me to the tablet portion. As a tablet it is heavy and apparently only gets just over 3 hours in battery life. Yes, it has a full OS and that's great. But it won't get you through an entire day's work, which to me lessens the utility of the device for those that need a tablet.

Lastly (at least for now), for better or worse I am entrenched in Apple's ecosystem. This is of course subjective, but I still prefer OS X and there are a lot of apps that I would rather not purchase again for Windows. I like how all of my Apple products work well together (most of the time). I've only been using Macs for 5 years compared to about 25 for Windows, so I don't feel I'm ready for a move back to Windows just yet.

Anyway, TLDR: great looking product with innovative features but vague info on the GPU, Windows 10, the fact that it is both a tablet and a laptop, poor battery life in tablet mode, heavy in tablet mode, and Apple's ecosystem are why I wouldn't move to the Surface Book. At least not for now.

 

[Samuelsan2001]

Forgot to add that at least M$ has released a 6th gen proc laptop. The 15" MBP is still using a 2 generation old proc. It's pathetic to think that in January 2016, we'll probably still see Apple selling $3k machines with Haswell procs.

Why is that pathetic?

Both broadwell and skylake (where the good processors with better graphics and higher TDP that apple use are not yet released) are only marginal upgrades in performance really you wouldn't notice the difference. The Broadwell chips that would go in the 15 inch pro (the 13 has broadwell after all) were released 4 months ago it just wasn't worth apples effort when they could skip straight to the skylake, WHEN INTEL RELEASES THE APPROPRIATE CHIPS.

The chips MS are using in there surface book are the skylake equivalent of a what is in a macbook air why would you want that in a macbook pro???

 

[BoneDaddy]

Everyone seems to be increasingly interested in gimmicks these days.

"So you mean I gotta pay for gas, tuneups, and alignments for my new car? SCREW THIS! I'm gonna switch to that new hipster fixie bike with magnetic tires so I can remove them without a wrench, and the cup holder for my 32 ounce Starbucks moka choka lata yaya!"

Enjoy!

 

[maflynn]

Everyone seems to be increasingly interested in gimmicks these days

I can only speak about myself and I don't think its gimmicks (though the fulcrum hinge could be considered one) are what are intriguing me.

For me, I look at what apple has done in the past few years.

• Mac Pro - 3k professional machine that has no drive bays and the available GPUs AFAIK are lacking
• Mac Mini - reduced/cut back on the cores, making it less powerful.
• rMB - basically a MacBook Air with a retina screen but thinner. While it has a new keyboard, and USB-C, it sacrificed other ports.
• iMac - 4k display, no dGPU, 5400 rpm drive in the stock configuration, reduced the flash storage to 24GB in the Fusion drive.
• MBP - ????

So looking back at Apple, I see a company that is not really adding to the computers but removing. At least we see one company pushing the envelope and trying different things. I don't think everything about the SurfaceBook is a winner (the Fulcrum hinge) but overall I'm impressed with what it has to offer.

I prefer OS X and have enjoyed Macs for many years. I've been very vocal in saying that the 2012 rMBP has been my best laptop bar none but I do not want to see a thinner MBP with less ports on its next iteration - not at nearly 2k

 

[BoneDaddy]

I can only speak about myself and I don't think its gimmicks (though the fulcrum hinge could be considered one) are what are intriguing me.

For me, I look at what apple has done in the past few years.

• Mac Pro - 3k professional machine that has no drive bays and the available GPUs AFAIK are lacking
• Mac Mini - reduced/cut back on the cores, making it less powerful.
• rMB - basically a MacBook Air with a retina screen but thinner. While it has a new keyboard, and USB-C, it sacrificed other ports.
• iMac - 4k display, no dGPU, 5400 rpm drive in the stock configuration, reduced the flash storage to 24GB in the Fusion drive.
• MBP - ????

So looking back at Apple, I see a company that is not really adding to the computers but removing. At least we see one company pushing the envelope and trying different things. I don't think everything about the SurfaceBook is a winner (the Fulcrum hinge) but overall I'm impressed with what it has to offer.

I prefer OS X and have enjoyed Macs for many years. I've been very vocal in saying that the 2012 rMBP has been my best laptop bar none but I do not want to see a thinner MBP with less ports on its next iteration - not at nearly 2k

I completely agree with you on all counts of your points. One thing people don't think about though, is that Apple got themselves into a bit of marketing trouble when they started releasing a wide array of product that are so close in performance, that nobody is going to pay more for something that costs less, and is close in spec. So I completely understand why they did that. I'm only disappointed that they found themselves in that conundrum.

The GPU can be considered to be be lacking, but people who buy those aren't looking for that.

Right now, the 15" rMBP speced out is where it's at, in my book, as far as bang for buck.

Back to my point. Apple has never been a gimmick company. In fact people complain a lot about things they think it should have, that it doesn't. Sometime I used to as well. But to me, Apple gives us the absolute best of what's necessary. And that's why I stick with them. Plus it's the only OS I can tolerate. You look at the surface book, and it's this expensive gimmick of a Macbook clone that does things that most people aren't going to need it to do. Perhaps I'm wrong in my views, but it'd take some serious convincing for me to not look at this as a pretty cool, but gimmicky, Macbook clone. Hell, if the keys were black, I wouldn't be able to tell them apart when open, if not for the Klingon hinge.

 

[maflynn]

You look at the surface book, and it's this expensive gimmick of a Macbook clone that does things that most people aren't going to need it to do.

Some of the criticisms of the SurfaceBook fall into that category, i.e., it could be a much better laptop if they didn't try to make it a tablet as well. I have to agree.

For me its value for my money, and while I really like the SurfaceBook, I am having a hard time justifying spending 2k on a 13" laptop. Here's what I'm looking at cost wise (I get an educational discount thanks to my employer)

I'm not done with my analysis and I want to verify the Geekbench scores. The 2015 rMBP scores seems a bit too high in comparison to the 27" iMac.

 

[Queen6]

I can only speak about myself and I don't think its gimmicks (though the fulcrum hinge could be considered one) are what are intriguing me.

For me, I look at what apple has done in the past few years.

• Mac Pro - 3k professional machine that has no drive bays and the available GPUs AFAIK are lacking
• Mac Mini - reduced/cut back on the cores, making it less powerful.
• rMB - basically a MacBook Air with a retina screen but thinner. While it has a new keyboard, and USB-C, it sacrificed other ports.
• iMac - 4k display, no dGPU, 5400 rpm drive in the stock configuration, reduced the flash storage to 24GB in the Fusion drive.
• MBP - ????

So looking back at Apple, I see a company that is not really adding to the computers but removing. At least we see one company pushing the envelope and trying different things. I don't think everything about the SurfaceBook is a winner (the Fulcrum hinge) but overall I'm impressed with what it has to offer.

I prefer OS X and have enjoyed Macs for many years. I've been very vocal in saying that the 2012 rMBP has been my best laptop bar none but I do not want to see a thinner MBP with less ports on its next iteration - not at nearly 2k

Personally I think that Apple is looking at the tremendous success of IOS devices, and see`s similar opportunities in the PC space. Windows is a well developed OS, equally for some an extremely complicated one to deal with firsthand, that can and does frustrate a percentage of it`s users. For many Windows 10 is simply intimidating with it`s myriad settings, coupled with little if any real support. Ultimately these factors can and do lead to a poor user experience, regardless of hardware.

The Mac with OS X on the other hand is generally far easier to deal with, and Apple has a solid footprint of "bricks & mortar" shops offering local support and even training. Opportunity is clearly knocking. There is no doubting that Apple is slowly depreciating aspects of OS X and the Mac, and to some of us launching some fairly mediocre systems. So I wonder if this is their strategy as ultimately Apple is a provider of consumer goods. More affordable Mac`s, with an easy to live with OS, I strongly suspect will result in a greater sales over time to the average consumer.

I Rather think that if the new 4K iMac sells in significant numbers, that we can expect far more of the same in the future, and there lies the quandary for those of us who require a more fully featurd OS and hardware with greater levels of flexibility. I don't blame Apple, as they serve their shareholders, greater level of sales & customer satisfaction is exactly what`s required.

Inversely this also opens the door for Microsoft to offer a premium product, taking much from Apple`s model. As there is undoubtably a market for devices such as the Surface Pro & Surface Book. If I was to move to a primary Windows system I would definitely buy from Microsoft, for the exact same reasons as I have alway bought from Apple; premium product, adequate performance, hardware & software developed in house, with physical presence should issue rise.

Just a thought...

Q-6

 

[Samuelsan2001]

Personally I think that Apple is looking at the tremendous success of IOS devices, and see`s similar opportunities in the PC space. Windows is a well developed OS, equally for some an extremely complicated one to deal with firsthand, that can and does frustrate a percentage of it`s users. For many Windows 10 is simply intimidating with it`s myriad settings, coupled with little if any real support. Ultimately these factors can and do lead to a poor user experience, regardless of hardware.

The Mac with OS X on the other hand is generally far easier to deal with, and Apple has a solid footprint of "bricks & mortar" shops offering local support and even training. Opportunity is clearly knocking. There is no doubting that Apple is slowly depreciating aspects of OS X and the Mac, and to some of us launching some fairly mediocre systems. So I wonder if this is their strategy as ultimately Apple is a provider of consumer goods. More affordable Mac`s, with an easy to live with OS, I strongly suspect will result in a greater sales over time to the average consumer.

I Rather think that if the new 4K iMac sells in significant numbers, that we can expect far more of the same in the future, and there lies the quandary for those of us who require a more fully featurd OS and hardware with greater levels of flexibility. I don't blame Apple, as they serve their shareholders, greater level of sales & customer satisfaction is exactly what`s required.

Inversely this also opens the door for Microsoft to offer a premium product, taking much from Apple`s model. As there is undoubtably a market for devices such as the Surface Pro & Surface Book. If I was to move to a primary Windows system I would definitely buy from Microsoft, for the exact same reasons as I have alway bought from Apple; premium product, adequate performance, hardware & software developed in house, with physical presence should issue rise.

Just a thought...

Q-6

Oh yeah there is no doubt that microsoft is trying to build a hardware buisness model like apples, and they are slowly getting there.

I disagree that apples products are mediocre, specs wise they may concentrate on the middle "prosumer" ground but they are still the best made and best value products out there in terms of specs to price. For example there is no reason to believe that a 940M in the surface book will be any better than the IRIS skylake graphics when they come out, this makes the surface book just a bit less performance wise than the upcoming 13 inch rMBP and quite a lot more expensive. It's not like MS are producing amazing gaming laptops or anything here...

It also has many new bits of technology for clipping together, new hinge style, separated double battery etc etc. I want to see how many issues they cause over the next year or two...

 

[Ethosik]

I checked the SB out at Best Buy and the MSFT Store over the weekend and have to say the build quality, the feel of the keyboard, and giant breakoff tablet were amazing. A superb feat of hardware engineering - albeit I still don't like that 1" fat loop hinge thing they have going on.

I was sold, right up until the demo threw a Windows Device Driver Crash error, the pen stopped working, and the device wouldn't switch to tablet mode in Win10. I asked the employee and he said "oh yeah, we've been having tech issues all day with this. BUT IT'S SWEET ISN'T IT???"

Honestly, I think it has potential for being a great device, but I have wandered back to Windows so many times in the past only to return to OS X in frustration. My experience with the demo just affirmed my understanding of the Windows experience - I'll stay with El Cap in the meantime.

Exactly, I rarely get BSOD these days, but I still have drivers crash, lockups, and more with Windows than OS X. Even on the same hardware (Windows installed on rMBP and Mac Pro). The only reason I still use Windows is Visual Studio and playing games.

 

[zhenya]

For example there is no reason to believe that a 940M in the surface book will be any better than the IRIS skylake graphics when they come out

The Iris graphics are available as a lower-performing option in the Surface Book already. It's also a high-performance option in the SP4.

 

[Ethosik]

Forgot to add that at least M$ has released a 6th gen proc laptop. The 15" MBP is still using a 2 generation old proc. It's pathetic to think that in January 2016, we'll probably still see Apple selling $3k machines with Haswell procs.

These days that really does not mean anything. We don't get 200% performance improvements with newer processors like we used to. We might only get 10% or so at best and that is with benchmarks. I really do not see a major difference between a first generation i7 and a newer i7 (same speeds, obviously a newer i7 with a higher speed is faster). It might have cut my rendering time by a minute or so, but it is not really that important.

These days, processors are updated for power and built-in graphics. Who cares if the current rMBP is running previous generation processors.

The thing I am really missing these days are USB3 and SATA3 (on my Mac Pro, but that will be replaced soon anyway).

 

[Samuelsan2001]

The Iris graphics are available as a lower-performing option in the Surface Book already. It's also a high-performance option in the SP4.

Ah yes but the 28W chips will be touting a 64MB eDRAM cache like the one in the IRIS pro...

 

[PTLove]

Why is that pathetic?

Both broadwell and skylake (where the good processors with better graphics and higher TDP that apple use are not yet released) are only marginal upgrades in performance really you wouldn't notice the difference. The Broadwell chips that would go in the 15 inch pro (the 13 has broadwell after all) were released 4 months ago it just wasn't worth apples effort when they could skip straight to the skylake, WHEN INTEL RELEASES THE APPROPRIATE CHIPS.

The chips MS are using in there surface book are the skylake equivalent of a what is in a macbook air why would you want that in a macbook pro???

Skylake 28Watt chips (used in the 13" Macbook Pro) are utilizing 64MB of eDRAM for the iGPU and should provide a very substantial GPU update for the new 13". Im eagerly awaiting the new release for that exclusive reason. You are correct Microsoft hasnt released those particular chips yet.... hopefully soon.

 

[TechZeke]

Some of the criticisms of the SurfaceBook fall into that category, i.e., it could be a much better laptop if they didn't try to make it a tablet as well. I have to agree.

For me its value for my money, and while I really like the SurfaceBook, I am having a hard time justifying spending 2k on a 13" laptop. Here's what I'm looking at cost wise (I get an educational discount thanks to my employer)

I'm not done with my analysis and I want to verify the Geekbench scores. The 2015 rMBP scores seems a bit too high in comparison to the 27" iMac.

View attachment 596575

I agree. The Surface Book would be much better if it didn't try to force the tablet aspect. I mean, If my work flow requires a tablet, I would much rather get the Surface Pro 4 instead. The surface Book doesn't really offer much above the Pro 4 and the 13" rMBP for the price premium below the $2k mark without the dGPU. At the $2K+ point, You might as get something a 15" rMBP, Razer Blade 14", or XPS 15 which offer significantly more GPU and CPU power without being much bigger.

Overall, If I was going to switch to Surface, I'd definitely just go with the Surface Pro 4. With that said, it's nice to see Microsoft making some quality hardware for the Windows side.

 

[maflynn]

I Rather think that if the new 4K iMac sells in significant numbers, that we can expect far more of the same in the future, and there lies the quandary for those of us who require a more fully featurd OS and hardware with greater levels of flexibility. I don't blame Apple, as they serve their shareholders, greater level of sales & customer satisfaction is exactly what`s required.

I think the 21" iMac will enjoy very good sales.

I disagree that apples products are mediocre,

Sadly, I think Apple has crossed over to the mediocre line in some of their products.

The Mac Mini and the 21" iMac are two examples, where as I mentioned the Mac mini going down to dual core, the iMac with the iGPU and more importantly the 5400 rpm drive. These are not what you would call stellar, high performing options.

 

[zhenya]

I agree. The Surface Book would be much better if it didn't try to force the tablet aspect. I mean, If my work flow requires a tablet, I would much rather get the Surface Pro 4 instead. The surface Book doesn't really offer much above the Pro 4 and the 13" rMBP for the price premium below the $2k mark without the dGPU. At the $2K+ point, You might as get something a 15" rMBP, Razer Blade 14", or XPS 15 which offer significantly more GPU and CPU power without being much bigger.

Overall, If I was going to switch to Surface, I'd definitely just go with the Surface Pro 4. With that said, it's nice to see Microsoft making some quality hardware for the Windows side.

I don't see how the Surface Book forces the tablet aspect. One could use it and never use the tablet function at all. It's not intended to be primarily a tablet; it's intended to be a laptop whose screen detaches for specific uses - to quickly run to a meeting to take notes (where a tablet is far less intrusive than typing away at a laptop) or to share or interact with specific content. The SP4 is a laptop for people who need or want a real tablet. The Book is a laptop for people who primarily need a laptop with the tablet being secondary.

Tell me this, is there any way that Microsoft could have built a regular Surface laptop that would have made a meaningful dent in the laptop landscape? I can't see how it would have been anything but another laptop with mediocre sales.

 

[Queen6]

I think the 21" iMac will enjoy very good sales.

As do I, outside of those that game the specification for the "casual" user is good enough, tack on all Apple`s "goodness" it`s a wining solution. The 21" iMac specification is set to ensure robust sales, and we can expect more.

Sadly, I think Apple has crossed over to the mediocre line in some of their products.

The Mac Mini and the 21" iMac are two examples, where as I mentioned the Mac mini going down to dual core, the iMac with the iGPU and more importantly the 5400 rpm drive. These are not what you would call stellar, high performing options.

Currently Apple only has one portable option with dGPU, nor would I be entirely surprised if this is deprecated on the next refresh, as Apple have stated that iGPU is the future. Apple are looking to sell volume of a quality product. Few are likely to stretch for a $3K Notebook, equally a $1K desktop for the family may well be an entirely different proposition to the average household.

Q-6

 

[Adamantoise]

I won't be getting a SurfaceBook ... I'll be keeping my MBP and running Windows 10 on it exclusively. I don't know what the hell happened to Apple, their recent OSes have all been terrible.

 

[ABC5S]

Not planning on going with the Surface Book unless Apple really hoses up the Skylake MBP (like all USB-C w/o USB3.0 and no discrete GPU), but I chortle at the ever present fanboy claim of crashes, sub-par quality, and security under Windows. Clearly things that are simply parroted over and over while worshiping a poster of Steve Job and not having any real world experience to back up the claims.

I use Windows daily on my home workstation and my office workstation. I cannot remember the last crash or BSOD I had in Windows, but I can tell you that my MBP crashes literally every day. Before you point fingers at 3rd party applications, understand that it ALWAYS crashes with Safari in the foreground. I've also had major problems with literally every MBP I've purchased in the past 6 years. Logic boards, screens, power boards, etc. Very expensive. Never had one last longer than 2.5 years without needing major service. This machine has been in the shop no less than 6 times and shipped back to Apple once without resolving the crashing issue.

Apple's quality is garbage and OSX only beats Windows in marginal areas. The simple fact that I cannot expand a window to full screen with one click is almost enough to ditch OSX entirely. The saving grace of OSX is Time Machine and a good incremental backup solution and network appliance.

User error...Mine is just fine for over a year. MacMini for over 2 years. No, I don't worship Steve Jobs or anyone, but God.

 

[Adamantoise]

User error...Mine is just fine for over a year. MacMini for over 2 years. No, I don't worship Steve Jobs or anyone, but God.

I doubt it's user error; I'm as computer savy as they come and ever since I updated/upgraded to Yosemite, I've had nothing but issues with OS X. Even after reformatting and doing clean OS installs. I doubt it was malware as those usually come from ad ridden sites that I have blocked in my hosts file.

Apple's recent OSes have disappointed me. At the time I was running Windows 8.1 on my desktop, and lo and behold, my desktop was actually the more stable machine in the house. My laptop would hang (and sometimes crash) when I streamed videos. I would open an application and the machine would just freeze until I force quit ... I mean, I just don't have the patience or time to deal with these issues.

 

[polbit]

Wow, a civilized discussion for a change, quite refreshing and a good read! Have to add my $0.02...

Hardware:
I am definitely glad that Microsoft is trying the hardware route, as not only is it rising the bar for other PC builders, it's also giving Apple something to think about. I like the Surfacebook from an engineering perspective, but it doesn't fit my usage pattern, so personally it's non-starter. SP4 for a tablet-first full-computer device is as good as they come, at that size anyway. Unfortunately Microsoft has had a number of day-zero issues with both devices, but once they are worked out, I'll probably be picking one up.

On Apple side, things are getting a little stale, outside of the Macbook which seems a bit of a pointless exercise in how think something can be made (reminds me a lot of the 1st MBA). The 15" rMBP are still the best laptops on the market IMHO though, but far from perfect, and could definitely use a real refresh. I'm just afraid it will mean thinner and less ports, and possibly even missing dGPU, which would be a deal breaker for me. Of course my Apple hardware discussion wouldn't be complete without mentioning the Apple trackpad - still the best in the world. That alone is a big part of my decision to keep buying the rMBP, despite my one major issue - thermals, and the heat/noise that they bring.

Software:
I think Windows 8.1 and Yosemite have been very stable and mature for most users. Both Windows 10 and El Capitan have had their share of issues, but overall I think both OSes are now stable, mature, and on par feature-wise. I use both on daily basis, and find something to like (and dislike) with both, but definitely enjoy how different they are - makes it more interesting.